01-30-2019, 06:44 PM
Hey Matt,
I have PET since 2000/2001, but currently I only have it during exercise and when consuming caffeine.
Back then it was much worse with autophony during class e.g. From the infamous sniffing habit of PET sufferes I actually got an eardrum perforation. The vacuum from the sniffing causes a permanent moving of the eardrum which makes it thinner till it tears.
I got nosedrops and antibiotics and the hole in the eardrum healed eventually. But the PET stayed.
I only had ceruloplasmin tested, it wasn't below the range but on the lower side.
Bute regarding these articles blood values of copper are not very useful anyway:
http://www.unveilingthem.com/CopperTheMa...ineral.htm
http://www.unveilingthem.com/CopperDefin...rement.htm
Please ignore the other articles on this site though, they are from some tin foil hat guy.
Regarding ACh I don't think we should avoid ACh or supplements that raise it (acetylcholinesterase inhibitors), ACh is not the bad guy we are just more sensitive to it than normal people.
From my experience regular choline doesn't really raise ACh much, because Choline does not easily pass the blood-brain-barrier. Centrophenoxine, Alpha-GPC and CDP-Choline are better for that.
Here's a video from Christopher Shade, I know he's more of a salesman than a scientist but I think he's right about the Phosphatidylcholine:
I definitely agree with too much zinc being a problem. I took 50 mg/day for years and I think it gave me additional symptoms like lower leg alopecia, red hair follices on lower legs and very dry skin on the ankles.
It didn't even seem to raise zinc much, I had a blood level of 1.0 mg/l with a range of 0.6-1.5 mg/l. Before the results I was actually scared I could have like very high levels from overdosing.
In a heavy metal urine test I was almost at the upper range with 1159 µg/g Creatinine and a range of 250-1200 µg/g Creatinine, so I was basically peeing out the zinc.
This woman had the same experience with zinc and copper:
So without copper it's useless to take zinc and it's probably lowering copper furthermore. I also have exactly the same vertical ridges on my fingernails and I hope that they will also go away from supplementing copper.
Copper sulphate (CuSO4) is given to animals as a food additive and is blue so the color probably doesn't matter. I just assumed that green is better because for example reducing divalent copper chloride to monovalent copper chloride changes it from blue to green.
Here's video:
The whole fear of too much copper is probably based on two anecdotal studies:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites...=0,5&hl=en
Micronodular cirrhosis and acute liver failure due to chronic copper self-intoxication - Released in the European Journal of Gastroenterology & Hepatology in 1993.
This study is cited by 41 articles.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites...=0,5&hl=en
A case of adult chronic copper self-intoxication resulting in cirrhosis. - Released in the European Journal of Medical Research in 1999.
This study is cited by 20 articles.
Strangely I couldn't find a copy of these articles. For the first study I couldn't even find the Volume 5, July 1993, Issue 7 where it must be contained.
If somebody has a copy of these articles please provide them to us.
And then there's this study where adult capuchin monkeys got a dose of 7.5 mg copper per kg per day, that equals 525 mg a day for a 70 kg human. Though a capuchin monkey only weighs 3-4 kg which would be a dose of 22.5 to 30 mg of copper.
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/142/2/233/4630792
"We hypothesized that administering high doses of copper to young (5.5 mg Cu · kg−1 . d−1) and adult (7.5 mg Cu · kg−1 . d−1) capuchin monkeys would induce detectable liver damage. "
"After 36 mo, the liver copper concentration was 4–5 times greater in treated monkeys relative to controls. All monkeys remained healthy with normal routine serum biochemical indices and there was no evidence of liver tissue damage."
"Their diets consisted of fresh foods plus vitamin and mineral supplementsfollowing the norms of the Primate Center, as previously published (25).Copper dosing was set at 5.5 mg and 7.5 mg/d (as copper gluconate) in 1 or2 doses to avoid acute manifestations (mainly salivation and loose stools)"
I don't really know if they now used 7.5 mg per day or 7.5 mg per kg per day. But interesting that they mention loose stool as a side-effect on high doses, that matches your experience. But I didn't notice that even at 9-12 mg per day.
But if a 3 kg monkey can take 7.5 mg a day without any liver damage that would equal 175 mg copper for a 70 kg human. Very strange if you keep in mind that there is no RDA and the recommended daily intake is 1.5 to 3 mg per day.
You could get the impression that there's a copper conspiracy.
Regarding your last question I don't think that supplements are better than foods, it's more likely that we have less copper in the food or too much zinc in the food.
Fructose and Vitamin C are also diminishing copper.
"The minimal amount of fructose that increases the severity of Cu
deficiency has received little attention. Rats fed Cu-deficient diets «1
mg Cu/kg diet) with as little as 20% fructose had more severe signs of Cu
deprivation than those fed 0% fructose (Johnson, 1988; Kays and Johnson,
1988). In this study, fructose decreased hemoglobin, cytochrome c oxidase
activity, Fe absorption, liver Cu, and liver Cu,Zn-superoxide dismutase in
a dose-dependent manner."
Constance Kies (auth.), Constance Kies (eds.) - Copper Bioavailability and Metabolism (1990, Springer US)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3694287
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6117609
I wouldn't recommend taking more than 500 mg Vitamin C a day.
I have PET since 2000/2001, but currently I only have it during exercise and when consuming caffeine.
Back then it was much worse with autophony during class e.g. From the infamous sniffing habit of PET sufferes I actually got an eardrum perforation. The vacuum from the sniffing causes a permanent moving of the eardrum which makes it thinner till it tears.
I got nosedrops and antibiotics and the hole in the eardrum healed eventually. But the PET stayed.
I only had ceruloplasmin tested, it wasn't below the range but on the lower side.
Bute regarding these articles blood values of copper are not very useful anyway:
http://www.unveilingthem.com/CopperTheMa...ineral.htm
http://www.unveilingthem.com/CopperDefin...rement.htm
Please ignore the other articles on this site though, they are from some tin foil hat guy.
Regarding ACh I don't think we should avoid ACh or supplements that raise it (acetylcholinesterase inhibitors), ACh is not the bad guy we are just more sensitive to it than normal people.
From my experience regular choline doesn't really raise ACh much, because Choline does not easily pass the blood-brain-barrier. Centrophenoxine, Alpha-GPC and CDP-Choline are better for that.
Here's a video from Christopher Shade, I know he's more of a salesman than a scientist but I think he's right about the Phosphatidylcholine:
I definitely agree with too much zinc being a problem. I took 50 mg/day for years and I think it gave me additional symptoms like lower leg alopecia, red hair follices on lower legs and very dry skin on the ankles.
It didn't even seem to raise zinc much, I had a blood level of 1.0 mg/l with a range of 0.6-1.5 mg/l. Before the results I was actually scared I could have like very high levels from overdosing.
In a heavy metal urine test I was almost at the upper range with 1159 µg/g Creatinine and a range of 250-1200 µg/g Creatinine, so I was basically peeing out the zinc.
This woman had the same experience with zinc and copper:
So without copper it's useless to take zinc and it's probably lowering copper furthermore. I also have exactly the same vertical ridges on my fingernails and I hope that they will also go away from supplementing copper.
Copper sulphate (CuSO4) is given to animals as a food additive and is blue so the color probably doesn't matter. I just assumed that green is better because for example reducing divalent copper chloride to monovalent copper chloride changes it from blue to green.
Here's video:
The whole fear of too much copper is probably based on two anecdotal studies:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites...=0,5&hl=en
Micronodular cirrhosis and acute liver failure due to chronic copper self-intoxication - Released in the European Journal of Gastroenterology & Hepatology in 1993.
This study is cited by 41 articles.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites...=0,5&hl=en
A case of adult chronic copper self-intoxication resulting in cirrhosis. - Released in the European Journal of Medical Research in 1999.
This study is cited by 20 articles.
Strangely I couldn't find a copy of these articles. For the first study I couldn't even find the Volume 5, July 1993, Issue 7 where it must be contained.
If somebody has a copy of these articles please provide them to us.
And then there's this study where adult capuchin monkeys got a dose of 7.5 mg copper per kg per day, that equals 525 mg a day for a 70 kg human. Though a capuchin monkey only weighs 3-4 kg which would be a dose of 22.5 to 30 mg of copper.
Quote:Administration of High Doses of Copper to Capuchin Monkeys Does Not Cause Liver Damage but Induces Transcriptional Activation of Hepatic Proliferative Responses
Magdalena Araya Héctor Núñez Leonardo Pavez Miguel Arredondo Marco Méndez Felipe Cisternas Fernando Pizarro Walter Sierralta Ricardo Uauy Mauricio González
The Journal of Nutrition, Volume 142, Issue 2, 1 February 2012, Pages 233–237
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/142/2/233/4630792
"We hypothesized that administering high doses of copper to young (5.5 mg Cu · kg−1 . d−1) and adult (7.5 mg Cu · kg−1 . d−1) capuchin monkeys would induce detectable liver damage. "
"After 36 mo, the liver copper concentration was 4–5 times greater in treated monkeys relative to controls. All monkeys remained healthy with normal routine serum biochemical indices and there was no evidence of liver tissue damage."
"Their diets consisted of fresh foods plus vitamin and mineral supplementsfollowing the norms of the Primate Center, as previously published (25).Copper dosing was set at 5.5 mg and 7.5 mg/d (as copper gluconate) in 1 or2 doses to avoid acute manifestations (mainly salivation and loose stools)"
I don't really know if they now used 7.5 mg per day or 7.5 mg per kg per day. But interesting that they mention loose stool as a side-effect on high doses, that matches your experience. But I didn't notice that even at 9-12 mg per day.
But if a 3 kg monkey can take 7.5 mg a day without any liver damage that would equal 175 mg copper for a 70 kg human. Very strange if you keep in mind that there is no RDA and the recommended daily intake is 1.5 to 3 mg per day.
You could get the impression that there's a copper conspiracy.
Regarding your last question I don't think that supplements are better than foods, it's more likely that we have less copper in the food or too much zinc in the food.
Fructose and Vitamin C are also diminishing copper.
"The minimal amount of fructose that increases the severity of Cu
deficiency has received little attention. Rats fed Cu-deficient diets «1
mg Cu/kg diet) with as little as 20% fructose had more severe signs of Cu
deprivation than those fed 0% fructose (Johnson, 1988; Kays and Johnson,
1988). In this study, fructose decreased hemoglobin, cytochrome c oxidase
activity, Fe absorption, liver Cu, and liver Cu,Zn-superoxide dismutase in
a dose-dependent manner."
Constance Kies (auth.), Constance Kies (eds.) - Copper Bioavailability and Metabolism (1990, Springer US)
Quote:J Nutr. 1987 Dec;117(12):2109-15.
Effect of varying ascorbic acid intakes on copper absorption and ceruloplasmin levels of young men.
Jacob RA, Skala JH, Omaye ST, Turnlund JR.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3694287
Quote:J Nutr. 1981 Nov;111(11):1964-8.
A postabsorption effect of L-ascorbic acid on copper metabolism in chicks.
Disilvestro RA, Harris ED.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6117609
I wouldn't recommend taking more than 500 mg Vitamin C a day.
